Deasbaireachd:Dùthchannan an t-Saoghail

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Note on "Ciriobataidh" - I don't believe this one to be suitable as the name "Kiribati" is pronounced "Kireebaas" (rather than "Kiribatty" etc) and is a corruption of "Gilberts". I suppose this shows the danger of respelling some of the non-English names. --Creachadair 22:32, 5 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Dùthchannan[deasaich an tùs]

Leth-bhreac bhon duilleag seo: User talk:Creachadair

Chan eil mi cinnteach ach is dòcha gu bheil an liosta seo: Dùthchannan an t-Saoghail neo 'sa Bheurla: List of countries ( le ath-stiùiridh gu Gàidhlig) feumail dhut-sa. Rinn mi fhìn agus Steaphan30 e leth-bhliadhna sa chaidh. Beannachdan --Sionnach 22:14, 5 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Moran taing, tha e gle fheumail. Tha mi caran sceptical air fear neo dha - 's fhearr leam litreachadh tusail aig "Zimbabwe", "Taiwan" neo "Bosnia & Herzegovina" - tha iad gu math duilich ri litreachadh sa Bheurla, oir nach e ainmean Beurla a tha annta idir, agus chan eil fuaimean Gaidhlig aca. Chan eil "Ciriobataidh" freagarrach airson "Kiribati" - biodh "ciorabais" nas fhaisge, chan eil an "t" ann mar "t" idir. Air an lamh eile, se Burma a chleachdas a h-uile duine ach an riaghaltas olc naiseanta aca. Tha fear neo dha aig a bheil ainm eadar-dhealaichte sa Ghaidhlig cuideachd - Iapan/Seapan, Maroco/Maroc/Moroco. Nam bheachdsa, se deagh-obair a rinn sibh san fharsaingeachd... --Creachadair 22:29, 5 an Giblean 2008 (UTC) p.s. Biodh liosta airson dùthchannan eiseimleach mar Alba, A' Chuimrigh, Duthaich Basgach, Catalunya 7c feumail cuideachd.
Fhuair sinn an liosta bhon fhaclair Akerbeltz, ' s e an t-aonar liosta a bha ann leis a h-uile dùthchannan. Ach tha cairt eile agam a-nise, Mapa den t-Saoghail, a tha iad a' cleachdadh anns na sgoiltean. Tha fios agam gu bheil mòran doighean sgrìobhaidh eadar-dhealaichte ann. May be one of these days we can get together and agree on some kind of a list ( add the different spellings to the article). I don't really care, which one, I just wouldn't like to see them moved back and forth all the time. All the best to you as well --Sionnach 22:49, 5 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)
The variant spellings can be acknowledged in the text. Siombabue seems a strange one - wouldn't Siombabuaidh/gh be better? "ue" is not a good combination - the only other word I can think of it in is ueir. The "Ciorabataidh" spelling is unsuitable, for reasons I go into elsewhere. It looks like there should be a "t" sound in Kiribati, but it comes out as Kireebass.
Sources I can think of offhand - Dwelly's, Mark's, Atlas airson Sgoiltean (somewhere in the house)... --Creachadair 22:53, 5 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be a good idea to copy this discussion to Talk:Dùthchannan an t-Saoghail? Started to look up some stuff...--Sionnach 22:49, 6 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

No probs ---Creachadair 11:00, 7 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

THa tòrr ainmean dùthcha ann aig nach eil riochd stèidhichte sam bith fhathast, a thaobh 's nach eil iad air an cleachdadh cho tric 's a tha dùthchannan eile. Ach, mar as trice, bidh Gàidhlig a' leantainn air faclan Beurla (agus a' cur an fhuaimneachadh aice fhèin orra) airson ainmean mar Cioriabataidh: a chionn 's gur e sin an dàrna chànan aig nan Gàidheal, 's mar sin dheth, chan eil feum sam bith ann a bhith ag atharrachadh cuid de dh' ainmean cho mòr 's eadhan nach aithne do dh'fhileantaich iad.
A thaobh tuigse ma-tà, nach feàirrte dhuinn a bhith a' cleachdadh nam faclairean a th' againn mar-thà, agus gu h-àraid an fheadhainn mhòra a tha fosgailte do dhuine sam bith air an eadar-lìn, seach na bhith a' cruthachadh nan ainmean againn fhìn. Tha prìomh cheangail aig Faclair Akerbeltz ri làrach Sabhal Mòr Ostaig, agus mar sin dheth, tha mi fhìn am barail gum bu chòir dhuinn gabhail ri na th' aca anns na faclairean sin, mura h-eil fios againn le cinnt. Tha mura-bhith ann uaireannan, ach chan eil an-dràsta! --Steaphan30 01:54, 9 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)


I agree with Steaphan30. As far as I know, there are only two major sources with an complete list of all the countrynames
  • Faclair Akerbeltz
  • “Map – balla an t-Saoghail”, from Stòrlann Nàiseanta (2003) (Half of the names are still in the englisch version, other translations include names like Bolibhia, Bhenesuèla, Mosambiog and Etiopia (my personal opion: far worse, no correct spelling according to basis rules!)
I don’t see anything wrong with using Faclair Akerbeltz, especially as a start for the not to common names. But in my opinion we shouldn’t make up names ourselves as long as there are sources in Gàidhlig around. I would prefer Gàidhlig names instead of English Names anyway (still in hope that there might be a good official list in Gàidhlig some day in the future).--Sionnach 10:26, 11 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Bosnia & Herzegovina[deasaich an tùs]

  • Bosna is Hearsagobhana
  • eile
    • 'S e Boisnia agus Heirseagoibhìna an t-ainm a tha air an aiste an dràsda. (No sources found on this one)
    • Colin Mark: -
    • Feuch Facal, Gairm (1995): -
    • ainm Beurla (Bosnia & Herzegovina) air Map-balla an Saoghail, bhon Stòrlann Nàiseanta 2003
    • ainm bho thùs: Bosna i Hercegovina

Is dòcha gu bheil nas fheàrr an aiste seo a' gluasad don ainm mhàthaireil: Bosna i Hercegovina le ath-stiùridhean bho na duilleagan eile. --Sionnach 22:41, 7 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

'S fhearr leam an ainm tùsach, tha e duilich ri litreachadh mar a tha e, as nas doirbhe sa Ghaidhlig!!! --Creachadair 17:24, 8 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Iapan[deasaich an tùs]

Bha deasbad ann, faic: Talk:Iapan --Sionnach 22:46, 7 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Tha an dithis ceart, nam bheachdsa - mar "Argentina" agus "the Argentine" sa Bheurla (tha am fear mu dheireadh caran sean-fhasanta). A-reir coltais, se "KosovA" san aite "KosovO" a-nis cuideachd. --Creachadair 17:25, 8 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Zimbabwe[deasaich an tùs]

'S e sin a lorg mi:

  • Simbabue
  • Siombabue ann an
    • Akerbeltz:[3]
    • Feuch Facal, Gairm (1995),
    • Google: 562 airson Siombabue
  • eile
    • ainm Beurla (Zimbabwe) air Map-balla an t-Saoghail, bhon Stòrlann Nàiseanta 2003
    • Colin Mark: -

Chan eil Simbabue a' choimhead ceart air taobh litreachadh na mo bheachd-sa, mar sin dheth mholainn-sa Siombabue.--Sionnach 22:52, 7 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Chan eil Zimbabwe mar facal Gaidhlig sam bith, sin an trioblaid. Chuala mi sgeul mu dheidhinn duine a' feuchainn "Yahweh" a chur do litreachadh na Gaidhlig - cha robh daoine sam bith ga thuigsinn! 'S fhearr leam Siombabue, ach chan eil e cho nadarra. Tha e coimhead mar "shimbabwe" (sa litreachadh Beurla) agus tha "ue" neonach cuideachd.--Creachadair 17:28, 8 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Tobago[deasaich an tùs]

A bheil "Tobagò" nas fheàrr na "Tobago" - de do bheachd? --Creachadair 17:32, 8 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Chan eil mi cinnteach..., chanainn-se fhèin "Tobàgo" (leis an dàrna "syllable" nas faide), nam feumainn stràc a chur oirre. --Sionnach 20:59, 8 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

China etc[deasaich an tùs]

I went through An Tuil (20th century SG poetry) and did a headcount of various placenames (which I'll put on here) - Sìona occurred a number of times, and "an t-Sìn" only once. None of the mentions of Argentina used the form here. --Creachadair 16:17, 9 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Argentina etc[deasaich an tùs]

Rinn mi beagan obrach air Braisil, An Argantain‎, Boilibhia‎, An t-Sile‎ agus Coloimbia. Am bi sin ceart gu leòr? (Sorry, no sources found on Breasail.) --Sionnach 13:13, 11 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Breasail [4][5][6][7][8] - tha cuid ag argumaid gur e ainm Gaidhealach a tha ann am "Brazil".
Inntinneach, feumaidh mi coimhead air nas mionaidiche. Bhiodh e math nam b' urrainn dhut cuid de na beachdan seo a chuir ris an aiste.--Sionnach 18:05, 12 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)
An Argantain - chan fhaca mi e ann an àite sam bith eile.
Chile = also Tilì --Creachadair 21:46, 11 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)
Càite an do lorg thu e? --Sionnach 18:05, 12 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

An-dràsda tha mi ag obair air an liosta: Aimearaga-a-Deas. Tha cuid de na dùthchannan gun teacsa 's gun samhail fhathast. Chuir mi na iomraidhean agus na h-ainmean eadar-dhealaichte a tha agam-sa ris na h-aistean, ach chan eil mi deiseil fhathast. A bheil sin freagarrach dhut?--Sionnach 18:05, 12 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Ghluais mi Guiana Frangach gu Guiana Fhrangach, iomradh anns an aiste seo. Tha mi an dòchas gun robh sin ceart gu leòr. --Sionnach 20:26, 12 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

"An Tuil"[deasaich an tùs]

A spot count from An Tuil: Anthology of 20th-century Scottish Gaelic Verse. The numbers given are the page numbers where the names appear - many of the spellings identical to English are omitted e.g. Canada. After the arrow, I give my own conclusion.

Aird an Ear

  • Ailgear - Algeria - 75 -> Ailgear/An Ailgear
  • Cìopras (391), Cuprus (75) - Cyprus -> Cìopras
  • Iòrdan - Jordan - 326
  • Lebanon - Lebanon - 326 - spelling commonly used in Bible
  • Israel (678) - Israel - spelling commonly used in Bible

Aisia-a-deas/an-ear

  • Na h-Innsean (326) - India
  • Sìona (209, 326, 636, 666), An t-Sìn (326) -> Sìona
  • Burma - Burma (fior-ainm aig "Myanmar") 478 -> Burma
  • Sailon - Ceylon (Sri Lanca a-nis) - 478
  • Formósa - Formosa (Taiwan a-nis) 75
  • Bangla Dais (636) - Bangladesh -> Bangladais

R-E 7c

  • an Òlaint (75), an Òlaind (266) - Holland -> an Òlaind
  • Póland (255, 263) - Poland -> A' Phòlainn
  • An Ruis (390) - Russia -> An Ruis (occasionally "Ruisia")
  • Argentina (466), Argentìna (536) - Argentina - (no sign of An Argantain) ->?
  • Rwanda (490) - Rwanda -> Ruanda
  • Fàcland - Falkland Islands (534) -> Fàclann, Fàclainn
  • Flanders - Flanders -> Flànras (etc - spelling found commonly elsewhere)

--Creachadair 21:20, 11 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

The Collected Poems and Songs of George Campbell Hay: (Deorsa Mac Iain Dheorsa)[deasaich an tùs]

Bardachd sa Ghaidhlig a-mhain

  • An Aifric (consistently - but Afraga more common outside GCH) -> Afraga
  • Tir 'n Aildìr - Algeria (land of Algiers) -> ?
  • Aimearaga -> definitely
  • Argentina
  • An t-Sìn (China) -> Sìona
  • Cìoprus (Cyprus) -> Cìopras (but include redirect)
  • Na h-Innsean (India) -> ?
  • An Ruis -> An Ruis
  • Na Stàitean Aonaichte (US) -> definitely
  • Giobraltair (Gibraltar) -> ?
  • Andalùis - Andalucia
  • Càrtaist (Carthage) -> definitely
  • Creite (Crete) -> definitely
  • Ragùsa - Ragusa (baile an Eadailt/Dubrovnik)

--Creachadair 21:39, 11 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Deagh rannsachadh a tha seo, a' Chreachadair. Tha mi smaointinn gur e cùis thruaighe nach do ghabh na h-ùghdarrasan oifigeil ri cuid de sheann ainmean dùthcha mar a bh' aig na Gàidheal roimhe is fìor deagh Ghàidhlig aca. Tha cuid de na h-ainmean a thug thu dhuinn air an gabhail mar-thà, mar eisimpleir,An Ruis no An t-Sìn no Sìona.--Steaphan30 12:08, 12 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Tapadh leibh. Uill, dh'ionnsaich mi gum b'fhearr "Siona" na "an t-Sin" - tha Siona fada nas cumanta. An aon sgeul le "Afraga". Chan eil sgeul air "an Argantain", ach 's fhearr leam "an Argantain" na "Argentina" neo rud uabhasach mar "Airdsiantainia"!!! Is toil leamsa "an Ruis" cuideachd - se an t-ainm aosda a tha ann, ach ainm traidiseanta aig a bheil eachdraidh fada - cha bidh Giobraltair cho aosd ri sin, nam bheachdsa, agus tha fuaim "j" air an "g" sin co-dhiu.--Creachadair 17:17, 12 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)
Abair obair! Is math na seann ainmean faicinn. Tha mi cinnteach gu bheil iad glè fheumail. Tha mi a' dol leibh leis "an Argantain" an àite "Argentina". Saoil, a bheil àireamh ISBN air an leabhar seo, dìreach airson na h-iomraidhean? (Chuir mi an duilleag Wikipedia:Book sources air bonn miosan air ais, tha i ceangailte leis na ISBN's)--Sionnach 18:09, 12 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Brigh nam Facal[deasaich an tùs]

Brigh nam Facal, Faclair Ur don Bhun-sgoil (deas. Cox, Richard A.V.) - ISBN 0903204215

Chan eil an liosta seo cho fada, agus tha a' mhorchuid san Roinn-Eorp'. Same thing as the last lists - Cox's form followed by an arrow, with my preference.

Na Prìomh Dhùthchannan san Roinn Eòrpa

--Creachadair 21:14, 16 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Just added some links, most of them are under the suggested names.--Sionnach 14:08, 18 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Dùthchannan aosda[deasaich an tùs]

  • Yugoslavia - Iùgo-Slàbhia -> Iùgoslàibhia (BnF)
  • USSR - ASPP
  • Soviet Union - Aonachd Sobhietach/Sovietach 7c
  • Czechoslovakia - Seacoslòbhaigia?

--Creachadair 21:31, 16 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

--Sionnach 05:05, 17 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

I'd go for "Iùgoslàibhia" as it obeys caol ri caol, and "An Teaga-Slobhaige" seems okay, but doesn't conform to the current spelling of the name Slovakia. "ASPP" I remember from old Scotsman articles. There seems to be no agreement on how to spell "Soviet". The other two old countries that spring to mind are easy enough - a' Ghearmailt-an-Iar & a' Ghearmailt-an-Ear, but using their formal titles is a little harder. "Federal" has several translations, as for German Democratic Republic - Poblachd Deamocratach na Gearmailt?
"Iùgoslàibhia" is fine for me as well, I'm still not sure about "Sobhiet" 7c (caol ri caol..?). A' Ghearmailt-an-Iar & a' Ghearmailt-an-Ear, fine for me, German Democratic Republic->Poblachd Dheamocratach na Gearmailt --Sionnach 14:18, 18 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)

Other ones (of my own construction)

  • Ottoman Empire - Impire Otomanach
  • Austro-Hungary - Ostro-Ungaire, Impire Ostro-Ungarach?
  • Rhodesia - Roidìsia?

--Creachadair 16:39, 17 an Giblean 2008 (UTC)